Bristol Siddeley Engines 1960

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Sorry about the font size changes - this Google blog software is lousy - no matter I correct to Medium size, I find a little later some of it has changed to enormous!!

1963 History here, before RR Ltd bought us in 1966 (why? PM Harold Wilson MP 1940grandeur push? Not Facts ? see several centimetres below):

Sir Stanley Hooker's book "Not much of an Engineer" has one page (p124) which I find very concerning about the Politicians in UK - page 124 here, shows an Execution without Trial and FakeNews Evidence, and "Something" Caused Verdon-Smith to Accept It!! 

(A Minister's RFI? Or the Civil Servants RFI "we did not do wrong here"(Liars !!), and are unaccountable in UK's Govt System, for we only hear of the Elected Ones opinions).

You may have noticed that the day after the new UKForeignSecretary, Yvette Cooper, was appointed (5sept2025), she spoke very "eloquently" about the Ukraine's problems - written by "her" new unheard (wrong thinking Eton public school wordy non-numerate) team of course.... :

 

The details deep below come from this 1960 booklet that I was given as a Student Apprentice there, from 1960 to 1965:

This is an old letterhead, so not pristrine, sorry:

                      On Tornado engines, we used Telex a lot.

The KDF9 "Allowed" OUR Technology Explosion in the 1960's.......

........., but RR Derby never did see..... and bought time "occasionally" on a very small and very simple mini civil service computer at RAE, even in the later 1960's. I think Derby were unable to correctly calculate Off Design Performance then (like: at lower rpms, neither at sea level nor at altitude).

And Bristol's Pegasus Engine "Performance Deck PS.250" for the Harrier, was made available in Fortran IV in December 1969, before RB199 Performance went Fortran, after Our TS1800 RB199-34R Submission to NAMMA in September 1969 (ITP October 1969). Both Harrier and Tornado engine people were able to fully calculate Off Design Performance ANYWHERE in the Flight Envelope and at any speed (thus both BS143 and RB199 for MRCA-Tornado from June 1967, with my comprehensive calculation software, after the AFVG was cancelled).

See Andrew Dow's book "Pegasus the Heart of the Harrier" page 307 for the PS.250 deck info.

To The Legal Deposit Office
The British Library
Boston Spa, Wetherby
West Yorkshire LS23 7BY

Dear Sir/Madam, 14th January 2023
Please find enclosed my new book ““The Tornado Engine +” ISBN 978-1-64803-887-7 published in 2022.


Dear Sir/Madam, 6th September 2024
Please find enclosed my new book “Tornado New Horizons” ISBN 979-8-32824-379-7 published in 2024 recently.

Yours sincerely Jim Quinn BSc CEng FIMechE CPD

My heritage, in date order:   I was 5 year Apprenticed from 1960 to BSEL

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bristol_Aeroplane_Company

                                           includes Bristol Aero Engines,

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armstrong_Siddeley

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bristol_Siddeley

            BSEL had 715 patent applications

  including BRISTOL SIDDELEY ENGINES Ltd. Sept 11, 1962 [Sept. 14, 1961], No. 33011/61  - for the Pegasus config (uration) 

......US Patent 3140841, found much more easily than system in UK patent office - for the Pegasus config - what's up UK? Too many lawyers, not enough software engineers? 

As is usual, the Design Office claim Patents, for they do the drawings, but surely they should include reference to those (Aerodynamicists like Gordon Lewis) who had the idea in the first place?

https://image-ppubs.uspto.gov/dirsearch-public/print/downloadPdf/3140841

Rolls Royce quickly took the Bristol Harrier engine as their own in their publicity. Shown here in the new Bristol Aerospace Museum, is Concorde's Bristol Olympus engine :

and the Tornado's RB199 in Hangar 16R:

Bristol was at least 4 years ahead of RRDerby in off design iterative aerothermodynamic design, maybe much more (7 years?), for it maybe that they did not buy a big computer before the 1971 bankruptcy?! Design Points are almost easy by one-pass slide rule....., but NOT the iterative needs (slide rule time taken - impossible) for off design aerothermal performance and behaviour that we had at Bristol from 1964's new KDF9.

GIVEN that we were invited to RRDerby June 1968 to present our BS143 for Tornado, and I showed our off design data for that engine...... why did Derby never ASK us to simulate their 3 shaft engines? Clearly we were way ahead of them in simulation tech, and could have helped greatly.

PCRuffles claims to be a performance man....... but appears so ignorant of it, 

       and in his book, shows nothing of Bristol's ability which could have been available to Derby if they had ASK'd (whether for our KDF9 Scheme P simulation technology, or our single crystal shrouded blade technology design and certification - 1st in RR on both), nor in his AMECS dismissal at Bristol, to refuse advance of Typhoon's EJ200 engine control system (as I say in my book)!  MoDUK? Snubbed by him too, for they helped us financially to be thus SO FAR in advance of Derby tech. PCR knew nothing about Bristol's Collaboration..... actually, dismissed it!

Further :  RRDerby bought BSEL in 1966 - their engineers could have reviewed what we did in Bristol, but never did. So, we could have off design simulated their three shaft unmixed RB178, RB207, RB211 (all surged on SL testbed, surely for lack of simulations!!) in our Scheme P within a couple of weeks of asking DURING 1966.....  silly sods! 

GLWilde suggested his (unprepared one page) RB199-05 to us in June1968 at Alan Newton's meeting in Derby, after Our BS143 mixed reheated turbofan engine professional presentation, but his was an unmixed-non-reheat engine I discovered when I looked at GLW's one page of computer aerothermal design point output on return to Bristol with Gordon Lewis and Ian Broom (none of us knew of the - below - PCR book described 3 shaft disaster at Derby before That Meeting, for at least one of us would have said so during our long drive back to Bristol, before the M5 opened)   :

The Harrier Pegasus engine regular thrust increases formed Neville Quinn's Drive to WANT an Iterative Off Design Aerothermo computer calculation, so that SLS throttled back Results and Running Lines would be KNOWN, BEFORE test bed and P1127/Kestrel/Harrier aircraft runs...... and then flights at all airspeeds and altitudes (for Concorde's Olympus too),

            which were not possible before the KDF9 was purchased, since DEUCE was too small. For comparison, I have found weights for DEUCE 1200 kg (not including power supply or card reader), KDF9 4200 kg, with KDF9 at 192k bytes in 32kwords of 48 bits each!

Neville Quinn was the early Chief Performance Engineer on Pegasus, and became Bristol's Top Performance Chief, so oversaw my boss John Lane - and thus me, who used His KDF9 Scheme P to produce OUR 1967 BS143 off design simulation, then OUR 1968 3 shaft RB199 off design simulation, which was far greater than GLW's little fag-packet job it turned out......

The KDF9 was in boss Dennis Boston and software Pat Ellis's computer dept of course, but the Assembler programming by Brian Banes mostly I think, was defined By Neville's Scheme P aerothermo definition team of Arthur Brown and Dickie Burden from 1964. I got to know Bob Sinclair (KDF9 operations manager) quite well, as he often organised my RB199 long overnight runs for me!!

You should be aware that Derby TOLD US NOTHING about their early experience with 3 shaft engines, and their total failure to PREDICT how a 3 shaft engine worked, and which resulted in their MANY SURPRISE surges on SL test bed with their 1st 3 shaft engines...... 

We taught RRDerby about 

1) the OFF DESIGN PREDICTED shallow slope IPC running line in 1968 (so we introduced the IPBOV "Open" immediately for lower NH) and consequently it did NOT surge on OUR 1st 3shaft RB199 test bed run in September 1971 for OUR Aerodynamics Dept knew what was needed for the IPC surge line well in advance (that RRDerby's aerodynamicist's did NOT for Their 1st 3 shaft Sea Level (SL) test bed runs), 

2) it was even worse when WE PREDICTED high power offtake IPC running line lift towards surge as in wing sweep, which required we increased the idle speed as altitude increased (later in 1968), and then 

3) My IPC lock-in surge prediction in late 1971 at idle especially on decel, and with cross-drive secured for a single engine wing sweep at idle (cured by the VMO adjuster on the fuel metering unit, as JimQ defined on Tornado P02 at 1st flight time in 1974), and

4) The Vulcan in 1973, and ground runs and flights in Tornado 1974 on, Proved my Predictions were All ACCURATE.

5) oh, the RB199 Mk103 has stayed at the same thrust ever since 1983 - 42 years so far, showing just how good a prediction job we did, both Panavia and TurboUnion.

I can illustrate what happens on a 3 shaft engine to the IPCompressor, by showing an INLET characteristic, in comparison with an EXIT characteristic below:

I calculated and drew the EXIT chic from that INLET chic. I noticed this "vertical" Surge Line on the IPC EXIT, back in about 1971 during my off design simulations.

As the engine slows, the HPC "corrected (for Temperature and Pressure)" inlet mass flow decreases, which happens also on the IPC, but as you can see, the IPC EXIT chic Surge Line is fixed at a given "corrected" mass flow, so the IPC Running Line approaches that "vertical" Surge Line, even as speed decreases (until IDLE's low speed). This is obvious on the EXIT chic on the right, but not at all on the INLET chic on the left, where the (not shown) shallow slope Running Line approaches Surge as speed reduces, but "it is not clear why" at all!! The EXIT chic explains it. And that is why 3 shaft engines IPC need "shallow slope" Surge Lines! I have used that INLET chic on the left for talking about both IPC and HPC INLET's for they are a "similar shape" for each in practice. 

PCR's book 978-1-872922-48-5 ...... the RB178-2A of 1.45 BPR with 5 IPC stages, RB203 and RB207 described (NONE of which we knew about, until I read this book in 2025!) and PCR's tale of how lucky they were to have Lockheed and Boeing FORCE THEM TO BETTER PROGRAMME MANAGEMENT ASAP..... Derby disaster throughout the 1960's and early 1970's!

        AND, AFTER ALL THAT RUBBISH, Alan Newton FORCED US TO dump our GOOD BS143 (He so Acknowledged at the June 1968 meeting) for a 3 shaft design........ Where the heck was he coming from? Surely a Derby Technical Director would closely follow their 1st 3 shafts.....

and:  

Patents presume that the inventor is the Manufacturing and Test Engineer. 

A ridiculous Govt Stupidity, for Frank Whittle, a Pilot, was totally unable to do that for his jet engine Patent, and ditched the Patent Before(!) 1st run of any jet engine by him, for it cost way too much - the presumption IN UK LAW is that you would manufacture and sell ..... within a year....        Why don't they tax the Business instead - when products are selling.

If the system was changed and human individual different skills recognised, the jet powered bomber would have been available in 1943, just beating the Deutsch jet bomber launch, but it would have been even earlier than 1943, if Frank had an engineering company work with him from 1930, not 1934 or 35, and the silly E28/39 just delayed everything for another 2 years......So, a jet bomber (as Frank wanted, not a fighter - who over-ruled such an excellent Pilot?) in perhaps 1937/38! 

And given a Fast bomber, very few Lancaster Wellington Halifax aircrew would have been lost. The Battle of Britain taught that speed wins, but the stupid British Govt never learnt that lesson (not even 1944) with the very delayed Meteor instead of a bomber, having committed to the suicidal very slow piston prop Lancaster etc.

I have texted many ideas to the British Govt and the UN etc. (like Patent ideas), but never restricted to my implementation only! Those I have addressed will have to deal with the ideas, for I will NOT DO a Frank Whittle and try to implement them myself - you do it, not me. 

Change the UK System - "horses for courses" as they say - Engineers for Engineering Strategy not Pilots, MP, financiers ;  Pilots for strategic ideas not engineering though they will have good ideas (as Frank Whittle, and my local Pilot friend Michael Maltin DFC with Lancaster's, eventually VC10 and Chief Pilot BA, but refused Concorde as too old now); MP's for grouping constituents needs; Nurses for managing patient care; Surgeons for body changes and with ideas for precision that only Engineers can satisfactorily design develop test; Lawyers in Govt and the inadequate no technical ability Law Commission must embrace Engineers knowledge of the World, and draft in Plain English, so that MP can understand what they commit to, let alone the public's understanding;  and so on. Managers are NOT high tech Specialists......

Frank Whittle's Patent was recognised by Deutschland's Engineers, but not in Britain.....until 1937/38 when he had RUN the first jet engine - so very very late to win the war, for the Meteor took part in so little action, as a result of delaying years by the E28/39 waste of time also. 

Bristol's Controls team in 1988 had one Design Engineer who often scrutinised Patents to see what we might leapfrog....invest in.

1960 Bristol Siddeley Engine Applications below - before RR bought us in 1966 (did Govt force this? thinking of the old Hunter and Lightning Avon only (SGHooker's WW2 influence), not the more modern competition from the later SGHooker's BSEL) - 

      we were all upset by that buyout, for we were a very good collaborative Company with overseas Engineers, certainly BIG competitors to RRDerby, whom SGH left in 1948 to join Bristol, after conflict with Hives.

RR became bankrupt in 1971 because they had over extended themselves in buying BSEL, and then the Board lost financial control on the RB211 for they did not tell the Engineers at Derby to stop spending money, and design something different - like make a Titanium large diameter Fan instead. The Engineers were also to blame, for they over committed their embryo technology and bid a research engine to Lockheed - it was mainly Board Directors lack of Control.... and greed? Like sieze that last gold bar which sinks the dinghy.....

Note that Bristol were winning all the later contracts, beating Derby - TSR2 (Olympus 22R), Harrier (Pegasus), AFVG (M45G with SNECMA), and Concorde (Olympus 593 with SNECMA), then Tornado, for even that was Won by Bristol 

         (The Derby Tech Director Liked our two-shaft Pegasus based BS143, and said we were very capable of design and make for MRCA's (Tornado's) engine, but insisted RRDerby policy was "three shaft")

- so we launched OUR 3shaft design, not RRDerby's "thermodynamically thoughtless" RB199-05, but we had to use a RRDerby RB number : RB199-34R, together with the excellent MTU and Fiat Engineers.

The following list is a summary of Bristol Siddeley engines and their current applications in 1960 - words taken without modification, from the 1960 booklet. A competitive Company! :

TURBOFANS

BE 53   Pegasus : Hawker P 1127 (then Kestrel, now Harrier)

BS 59 : V/STOL applications 

BS 75 : Short/Medium range airliners and military applications

             M45G-AFVG, BS143 for MRCA-Tornado was 1966/7, so not here.

TURBOJETS

Olympus : Avro Vulcan, British Aircraft Corporation TSR-2, Projected supersonic transports (Concorde)

Gyron Junior : Blackburn Buccaneer S1, Bristol Type 188 supersonic research aircraft

Sapphire : Gloster Javelin, Handley Page Victor B Mk 1

Sapphire (J65 built in USA under licence) : Douglas A4D Skyhawk, Grumman F 11 F- 1 Tiger, Martin B-57 (Canberra), North American Fury, Republic RF-84F

Orpheus : Dassault BaIzac V,  Fiat G91 and G91-Trainer, Folland Gnat and Gnat-Trainer, Fuji T1A, Hindustan HF24, Short SB-5

Ghost : de Havilland Venom and Sea Venom, SAAB J29

Goblin : de Havilland Vampire and Vampire Trainer

Viper : Bell X-14 V/STOL research aircraft, de Havilland DH 125, Handley Page HP 115, Hunting Jet Provost, Jindivik target drone, Macchi MB 326 (and MB339 later), Piaggio/Douglas Vespa Jet, Westland SR-N1 Hovercraft

TURBOPROPS

Proteus : Bristol Britannia

Double Mamba : Fairey Gannet

Gnome : Feeder-line and executive aircraft

TURBOSHAFTS

Marine Olympus : Frigates, hydrofoils, air cushion vehicles and planing craft - we were the first in marine, and beat Derby hands down.

Industrial Olympus : 15 Megawatt turbo-generator set - again the first

Marine Proteus : HMS Brave class fast patrol boats, Vosper Ferocity fast patrol boat, Vosper Mercury express yacht, Fast patrol boats for the Federal German Navy and the Royal Danish Navy, Motor gun boats and motor torpedo boats for the Italian and Swedish Navies

A special version of the Marine Proteus is used in Donald Campbell's Bluebird

Industrial Proteus : 3 Megawatt turbo-generator sets

Gnome : Agusta Bell 101 G, Agusta Bell 204 B, Boeing/Vertol 107, Westland Wessex, Westland Whirlwind

Nimbus : Westland Scout, Westland Wasp, Westland SR-N2 Hovercraft

Turmo : Vickers Armstrongs VA 3 Hovercraft, Admiralty landing craft

RAMJETS

Thor : Bristol/Ferranti Bloodhound ground-to-air missile

(not in 1962 booklet for it was Secret - my JQ addition for I worked on the combustion chamber and double cone intake performance characteristic for this one:  1961  Odin : Hawker Siddeley Sea Dart long-range ship-to-air missile)

And hypersonic turbo-ramjets such as BS1012 in 1964, were Secret so not included.

ROCKET ENGINES

Gamma : Black Knight space research vehicle

Stentor : Avro Blue Steel stand-off bomb

PR 37 : Jindivik

AUXILIARY POWER UNITS

Artouste : Canadair CL 44, de Havilland Trident, Handley Page Victor, Short Belfast

Cumulus : Advanced strike aircraft

Palouste : Canadair CL 66, Ground starting units

DIESEL ENGINES

MD Series : British Transport Commission Type 3 and 4 locomotives, Brush Falcon locomotive, Blacktail fleet of trawlers, Vosper patrol boats for the Malayan Government, 1200 kW generator sets

PISTON ENGINES (AERO)

Centaurus : Blackburn Beverley, de Havilland Elizabethan  Hawker Sea Fury

Hercules : Bristol Freighter, CASA 207 Azor, Handley Page Hastings, Handley Page Hermes, Nord-Aviation Noratlas, Short Solent, Vickers Viking, Vickers Valetta, Vickers Varsity

Cheetah : Avro Anson

Gipsy Major : Beagle-Auster Terrier, de Havilland Chipmunk, de Havilland Tiger Moth

Gipsy Queen : de Havilland Dove, de Havilland Heron

Gipsy Six : de Havilland Dragon Rapide

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